It is, indeed. Perhaps the list should set reply-to over to discuss? This has benefits and drawbacks; I will discuss it with Vi and Frank. -- jra Nick Levay <nlevay@americanprogress.org> wrote:

Isn't the point of this list to be low-traffic no-discussion reports/information-only?

On Feb 7, 2013, at 6:41 PM, Eric A Louie wrote:

all i can say is, thank you for NOT posting that on nanog...

Much appreciated, Eric

________________________________ From: Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com>> To: outages@outages.org<mailto:outages@outages.org> Sent: Thu, February 7, 2013 1:27:29 PM Subject: [outages] Ok, ok; Jeezus, people... it was a joke.

I figured everyone had all the latest upgrades to their sense of humor, *and knew that I did too*.

I promise never to be funny again.

Cheers, -- jr 'after that' a -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com<mailto:jra@baylink.com> Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA #natog +1 727 647 1274 _______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org<mailto:Outages@outages.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages _______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org<mailto:Outages@outages.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

--- Nick Levay, CISSP Director, Technical Operations and Information Security Center for American Progress Email) nlevay@americanprogress.org<mailto:nlevay@americanprogress.org> Mobile) +1.415/577.0726 Desk) +1.202/481.8165

-- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

It should be but it seems to have descended into website outage, dns blips and localised cable provider reporting lately. Perhaps time for a new list with less noise? "The primary goal of this mailing list ("outages") is for outages-reporting that would apply to failures of major communications infrastructure components having significant traffic-carrying capacity, similar to what FCC provided prior to 9/11 days but they seem to have pulled back due to terrorism concerns. Some also believe that LEC's and IXC's also like this model as they no longer have to air their dirty laundry. Then again, this mailing list is not about making anyone look bad, its all about information sharing and keeping network operators & end users abreast on the situation as close to real-time information as possible in order to assess and respond to major outage such as routing voice/data via different carriers which may directly or indirectly impact us and our customers. A reliable communications network is essential in times of crisis. " On 8 February 2013 00:44, Nick Levay <nlevay@americanprogress.org> wrote:

Isn't the point of this list to be low-traffic no-discussion reports/information-only?

On Feb 7, 2013, at 6:41 PM, Eric A Louie wrote:

all i can say is, thank you for NOT posting that on nanog...

Much appreciated, Eric

------------------------------ *From:* Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> *To:* outages@outages.org *Sent:* Thu, February 7, 2013 1:27:29 PM *Subject:* [outages] Ok, ok; Jeezus, people... it was a joke.

I figured everyone had all the latest upgrades to their sense of humor, *and knew that I did too*.

I promise never to be funny again.

Cheers, -- jr 'after that' a -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA #natog +1 727 647 1274 _______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages _______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

--- Nick Levay, CISSP Director, Technical Operations and Information Security Center for American Progress Email) nlevay@americanprogress.org Mobile) +1.415/577.0726 Desk) +1.202/481.8165

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

On 8 February 2013 01:04, Carlos Alvarez <carlos@televolve.com> wrote:

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 5:52 PM, Stephen Wilcox <steve.wilcox@ixreach.com>wrote:

...

It should be but it seems to have descended into website outage, dns blips and localised cable provider reporting lately.

Perhaps time for a new list with less noise?

Or a stronger definition of "major?" I recently started a discussion on a state-wide Cox outage. That seems major to me, but I really don't know if that's within the list terms. Many times people post up that their one home internet connection is down, which clearly is outside the scope. Some better definition and enforcement of such may help.

Maybe someone can update the mailman page which defines the list's purpose and perhaps step in with some occasional moderation? Who exactly are the list owners (not the server, the list)..

There was a discussion on whether Facebook is a major part of "infrastructure" some time ago. As much as most of us would like to say it's not, the reality is that to many end users it is the internet or the e-mail system. Does this list apply to that?

Based on this: "failures of major communications infrastructure components having significant traffic-carrying capacity" I would say this is backbone fibre outages only, sea cable cuts, full regional affecting issues etc. Websites and DNS belongs to NANOG.. or downforeveryoneorjustme.com Put another way, I can work out myself if there is a facebook or google outage and dont need to compare reports from 100 areas of the world none of which factor in the technology which distributed applications and sites use. What I think the above defines is clear "cable X is cut on bridge Y between cities A and B affecting providers L+M who both use this duct" type of notifications - things that are precise and fundamental in their nature.

I'm subscribed here so I can learn of things that will affect our customers, and therefore us. We are a VoIP hosted service company with customers globally, to IP and PSTN outages everywhere affect us.

Exactly, and they will be continual and high volume in nature.. you will only gain real value in knowing of large infrastructure problems which affect many things simultaneously. my 2c. Steve

On 8 February 2013 01:26, Corey Quinn <corey@sequestered.net> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2013, at 5:04 PM, Carlos Alvarez <carlos@televolve.com> wrote:

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 5:52 PM, Stephen Wilcox <steve.wilcox@ixreach.com>wrote:

...

It should be but it seems to have descended into website outage, dns blips and localised cable provider reporting lately.

Perhaps time for a new list with less noise?

Or a stronger definition of "major?" I recently started a discussion on a state-wide Cox outage. That seems major to me, but I really don't know if that's within the list terms. Many times people post up that their one home internet connection is down, which clearly is outside the scope. Some better definition and enforcement of such may help.

I'd agree. The problem is, when it's YOUR connection that's down, it's major. When it's someone you never speak to, it doesn't matter at all. Between those two extremes, it's all "shades of gray."

There was a discussion on whether Facebook is a major part of "infrastructure" some time ago. As much as most of us would like to say it's not, the reality is that to many end users it is the internet or the e-mail system. Does this list apply to that?

I'd argue yes; the reason I cared a whit about Facebook isn't because I have end-users who use it, but that my employer offers OAuth via Facebook Connect. When THAT goes down, it affects all manner of things.

Is this a serious answer? Because something is important to you it should fall into the definition of "failures of major communications infrastructure components having significant traffic-carrying capacity" ? .. thats precisely the definition of something thats a localised issue and should not be shared outside that community. You need to subscribe to an OAuth mailing list. Steve

On 8 February 2013 01:47, Corey Quinn <corey@sequestered.net> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2013, at 5:41 PM, Stephen Wilcox <steve.wilcox@ixreach.com> wrote:

Is this a serious answer? Because something is important to you it should fall into the definition of "failures of major communications infrastructure components having significant traffic-carrying capacity" ?

No, it qualifies given that almost every consumer (and a fair few business) facing service out there lets you use either Twitter or Facebook to authenticate; it's in the same bucket as 8.8.8.8 going down. Widespread service failures for end users result if it happens, and is the kind of thing that's useful to understand in the context of "why is the helpdesk phone exploding."

The problem here is that 8.8.8.8 as well as many large web sites are distributed. Its legitimately down for you and not for 95% of the rest of its users which may in turn be only a small % of the wider telecom/internet user base. Its also clear from the recent posts that the details of how operators like Facebook and Google architect their applications is not well understood by its users. Hence we have issues reported which result in large threads which end up being of little use to anyone, even the users of those apps. Signal to Noise = poor .. thats precisely the definition of something thats a localised issue and

should not be shared outside that community. You need to subscribe to an OAuth mailing list.

Localized only insofar as it's a layer 7 problem should it hit; past that, the effects are internet-wide.

I refer again to the list's already written mandate: "failures of major communications infrastructure components having significant traffic-carrying capacity" This is definitely not encompassing Layer-7. I understand its important to a set of users, thats why I suggest there ought to be a place where those users can discuss those issues. Steve

On 8 February 2013 03:48, Patrick W. Gilmore <patrick@ianai.net> wrote:

On Feb 07, 2013, at 21:01 , Stephen Wilcox <steve.wilcox@ixreach.com> wrote:

...

On 8 February 2013 01:47, Corey Quinn <corey@sequestered.net> wrote:

...

On Feb 7, 2013, at 5:41 PM, Stephen Wilcox <steve.wilcox@ixreach.com> wrote:

...

...

No, it qualifies given that almost every consumer (and a fair few business) facing service out there lets you use either Twitter or Facebook to authenticate; it's in the same bucket as 8.8.8.8 going down. Widespread service failures for end users result if it happens, and is the kind of thing that's useful to understand in the context of "why is the helpdesk phone exploding."

The problem here is that 8.8.8.8 as well as many large web sites are distributed. Its legitimately down for you and not for 95% of the rest of its users which may in turn be only a small % of the wider telecom/internet user base.

And a cut between L3 & Sprint, or NYC & LON, which you seem to think qualify, is still "local" and "may in turn be only a small % of the wider telecom/internet user base".

Aren't definitions fun?

...

Its also clear from the recent posts that the details of how operators like Facebook and Google architect their applications is not well understood by its users.

Oh, please, the details of how Operators like L3 & COLT operate their fiber infrastructure is not understood by L3 & COLT!

...

Hence we have issues reported which result in large threads which end up being of little use to anyone, even the users of those apps.

Signal to Noise = poor

I think the S:N ratio is orthogonal to whether it is FB, DNS, or fiber.

...

I refer again to the list's already written mandate: "failures of major communications infrastructure components having significant traffic-carrying capacity"

Assume Akamai has an outage (using an intentionally impossible scenario just to prove a point :). Would that be "communications infrastructure"? Akamai has essentially zero fiber. How about "significant traffic-carrying capacity"? Akamai has no network. Is it useful to the outages community?

I would argue that "communications infrastructure" can easily encompass more than routers, DWDM, and fiber. I would also argue that things which direct enormous amounts of traffic (FB, Netflix, Google, iPlayer, etc.) count, even though they do not actually _carry_ any traffic.

...

This is definitely not encompassing Layer-7. I understand its important to a set of users, thats why I suggest there ought to be a place where those users can discuss those issues.

This list isn't for discussion, we have -discuss for that. (And I wonder if this thread should be there?)

This list is for notification. And I would like to be notified if 8.8.8.8 or Netflix is down.

And I would like to be notified if my local Papa Johns has any specials on combo pizza and chicken strips...

The list owners (or a vote of the members? I don't know how this works) can decide otherwise. But your arguments are unpersuasive.

I'm just quoting what the mailman page says the list is for.... if that description is wrong, then I'm on the wrong list. Steve

OTOH: I don't like seeing long threads of useless info (e.g. "Is FB down? I can't load it." with no other info) any more than the next guy. But I repeat, that's orthogonal to the thing which is down. We see just as many clueless "fiber cut" notices as "google is down" notices, if not more.

-- TTFN, patrick

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

On 8 February 2013 04:28, Patrick W. Gilmore <patrick@ianai.net> wrote:

On Feb 07, 2013, at 23:07 , Stephen Wilcox <steve.wilcox@ixreach.com> wrote:

...

...

This list is for notification. And I would like to be notified if 8.8.8.8 or Netflix is down.

And I would like to be notified if my local Papa Johns has any specials on combo pizza and chicken strips...

Fair rejoinder.

Allow me to rephrase: I think it is important to a significant fraction of the 'Net when something that is used by a significant fraction of the 'Net goes down. The examples above are usually more relevant to more people than a single fiber cut.

...

...

The list owners (or a vote of the members? I don't know how this works) can decide otherwise. But your arguments are unpersuasive.

I'm just quoting what the mailman page says the list is for.... if that description is wrong, then I'm on the wrong list.

And I gave you reasons why the above fits that description, which you conveniently snipped.

Well, each individual will have their own things they consider important (hence my pizza jibe) and will want to argue are relevant to thousands of people. But thats not a good way to maintain a low volume on-topic mailing list. Your argument is also expanding the scope, I am trying to argue for the status quo of what was originally said. However, you may be right. Or you may well be on the wrong list. Or maybe

the definition needs massaging.

Shall we define things like "infrastructure" better? I would call the Domain Name System "communications infrastructure". As a trivial (and hyperbolic) example, would you argue all 13 root servers going down should not be on topic?

Correct. And that avoids mandate creep and unnecessary discussion to define it - eg are the GTLDs important, what about google.com, what about the .biz or .cd ?

Shall we modify the part about "traffic-carrying capacity"? Fewer Mbps are transmitted on one of the many fiber paths between Sprint & UUNET (which are typically redundant) than Netflix pushes. However, Netflix doesn't "carry" any traffic. Are you going to argue Netflix is not relevant to the readers of this list? Many (most?) see a larger traffic shift from a Netflix outage than a cut between Sprint & UU.

I'd argue its important for many but off-topic. And this kind of website discussion exists simultaneously in many *NOG mailing lists, usually looping around the first 50 people saying who sees the service up and who sees it down, followed by 50 posts speculating on the cause of the issue, followed by 50 posts discussions the merits of GSLB vs anycast etc.

Then there is the fun around the word "major". It could go on for weeks!

I don't have the desire to argue for weeks, replying this morning is pushing it.. But let's short-circuit this entertainment and ask a more basic question:

Who defines these things, and by what process? If this list is only for fiber cuts & router crashes, then let's say so and be done with it.

Someone defined it, wrote it down and I'll run with it. In my understanding that means physical infrastructure failures of a significant nature, links carrying high capacity, multiple public network operators ... I'd have no issue making the wording more specific, but I think less specific is opening pandora's box. Steve

-- TTFN, patrick

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

+1 I've been monitoring this list for over 2 years. Perfect? No. Works? Yes. If it ain't broke ... Ed -----Original Message----- From: outages-bounces@outages.org [mailto:outages-bounces@outages.org] On Behalf Of Warren Kumari Sent: Friday, February 8, 2013 9:06 AM To: Stephen Wilcox Cc: outages@outages.org Subject: Re: [outages] Communication Infrastructure [was: Ok, ok; Jeezus, people... it was a joke.] Seriously folk? This is a public list. Sure, sometimes folk post that they got 7.312% packet loss from their laptop to their printer. Sometimes folk post that the images on http://www.obscure-website.com to are not loading, or are the wrong shade of green. Different stuff is important to different folk, and people like to share their pain. Sometimes folk want to chat about "outages" that are interesting to them, or just funny, or odd, or whatever. Hey, sometimes folk also want to chat about random, off-list crap. This is not a paid service, it is a community of folk. Communities communicate. If you try and turn this into purely a notification list (with strict rules of engagement) I suspect you will lose the folk who actually contribute. If you are expecting to redirect this list to your pager, so you get woken up when "the Internets is down" I suspect you will (continue) to be unhappy (and sleep deprived to boot!) W On Feb 8, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Stephen Wilcox <steve.wilcox@ixreach.com> wrote:

On 8 February 2013 04:28, Patrick W. Gilmore <patrick@ianai.net> wrote: On Feb 07, 2013, at 23:07 , Stephen Wilcox <steve.wilcox@ixreach.com> wrote:

...

...

This list is for notification. And I would like to be notified if 8.8.8.8 or Netflix is down.

And I would like to be notified if my local Papa Johns has any specials on combo pizza and chicken strips...

Fair rejoinder.

Allow me to rephrase: I think it is important to a significant fraction of the 'Net when something that is used by a significant fraction of the 'Net goes down. The examples above are usually more relevant to more people than a single fiber cut.

...

...

The list owners (or a vote of the members? I don't know how this works) can decide otherwise. But your arguments are unpersuasive.

I'm just quoting what the mailman page says the list is for.... if that description is wrong, then I'm on the wrong list.

And I gave you reasons why the above fits that description, which you conveniently snipped.

Well, each individual will have their own things they consider important (hence my pizza jibe) and will want to argue are relevant to thousands of people. But thats not a good way to maintain a low volume on-topic mailing list. Your argument is also expanding the scope, I am trying to argue for the status quo of what was originally said.

However, you may be right. Or you may well be on the wrong list. Or maybe the definition needs massaging.

Shall we define things like "infrastructure" better? I would call the Domain Name System "communications infrastructure". As a trivial (and hyperbolic) example, would you argue all 13 root servers going down should not be on topic?

Correct. And that avoids mandate creep and unnecessary discussion to define it - eg are the GTLDs important, what about google.com, what about the .biz or .cd ?

Shall we modify the part about "traffic-carrying capacity"? Fewer Mbps are transmitted on one of the many fiber paths between Sprint & UUNET (which are typically redundant) than Netflix pushes. However, Netflix doesn't "carry" any traffic. Are you going to argue Netflix is not relevant to the readers of this list? Many (most?) see a larger traffic shift from a Netflix outage than a cut between Sprint & UU.

I'd argue its important for many but off-topic. And this kind of website discussion exists simultaneously in many *NOG mailing lists, usually looping around the first 50 people saying who sees the service up and who sees it down, followed by 50 posts speculating on the cause of the issue, followed by 50 posts discussions the merits of GSLB vs anycast etc.

Then there is the fun around the word "major". It could go on for weeks!

I don't have the desire to argue for weeks, replying this morning is pushing it..

But let's short-circuit this entertainment and ask a more basic question: Who defines these things, and by what process? If this list is only for fiber cuts & router crashes, then let's say so and be done with it.

Someone defined it, wrote it down and I'll run with it. In my understanding that means physical infrastructure failures of a significant nature, links carrying high capacity, multiple public network operators ... I'd have no issue making the wording more specific, but I think less specific is opening pandora's box.

Steve

-- TTFN, patrick

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

-- For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. -- H. L. Mencken _______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

Feel free to redirict to -discuss if this is more appropriate there. I think making the definition of "major" more clear would be useful. Despite Steve's comment about DNS, I think outages of 8.8.8.8 or OpenDNS count as major. I think state-wide broadband outages also qualifies. Perhaps put a number of users affected? Perhaps add an exception for geographical areas, say a whole country or province/state? Then when people email the list about a traceroute and having 20% packet loss on hop 5 out of 12 and nothing anything else, we can make fun of them. You know, since that always works. Oh, I almost forgot: Jay, you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny. (That should stop him from off-topic posting. :) -- TTFN, patrick On Feb 07, 2013, at 20:04 , Carlos Alvarez <carlos@televolve.com> wrote:

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 5:52 PM, Stephen Wilcox <steve.wilcox@ixreach.com>wrote:

...

It should be but it seems to have descended into website outage, dns blips and localised cable provider reporting lately.

Perhaps time for a new list with less noise?

Or a stronger definition of "major?" I recently started a discussion on a state-wide Cox outage. That seems major to me, but I really don't know if that's within the list terms. Many times people post up that their one home internet connection is down, which clearly is outside the scope. Some better definition and enforcement of such may help.

There was a discussion on whether Facebook is a major part of "infrastructure" some time ago. As much as most of us would like to say it's not, the reality is that to many end users it is the internet or the e-mail system. Does this list apply to that?

I'm subscribed here so I can learn of things that will affect our customers, and therefore us. We are a VoIP hosted service company with customers globally, to IP and PSTN outages everywhere affect us.