I mentioned this to Virendra in that survey that was sent out, but why do we feel its important to track facebook being up or down? I find this list to be useful in tracking major IP outages between transit carriers. It goes directly to my NOC pager and all my NOC staff, and many times it has been very useful when people post about an OC-48 cut for ATT, or an XO outage, then our customers call us about issues and we know its not us and their carrier. I could care less whether or not Facebook is up or down. Facebook doesn't effect the rest of the internet like a Level3 or ATT outage, or or fiber cut in NYC. If you go to facebook.com and its down, then yes, its down. End of story. They are an endpoint on the internet. I'm not opposed to other sites being reported. If Google is down, thats big, because Google provides a ton email proxy services. Likewise, the post about register.com being down was very helpful because they provide core DNS services. These sites/networks effect the internet. But facebook is meaningless from an infrastructure/operations standpoint, and is a complete waste of time to discuss on this list. -John On Nov 18, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Peter Kranz wrote:

Yes and no… Was down even from direct peering connection in Palo Alto, now back up again..

From: outages-bounces@outages.org [mailto:outages- bounces@outages.org] On Behalf Of Ujjval Karihaloo Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 8:22 AM To: outages@outages.org Subject: [outages] Facebook down?

Is Facebook down again?

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

Yeah, but you dont need the outages mailing list to determine if facebook is down for your ISP constituents. Just bring up a browser, and if its down, its down! Testing over. Unlike an Sprint outage in Chicago, there is no easy way for me to test that, but a post on the list helps. -John On Nov 18, 2010, at 12:28 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

Some operations do depend on Facebook.

It's good to know when you're running an ISP and customers say the Internet is down the same time you know Facebook is down.

Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 11:52 AM, John Von Essen <john@quonix.net> wrote:

...

I mentioned this to Virendra in that survey that was sent out, but why do we feel its important to track facebook being up or down? I find this list to be useful in tracking major IP outages between transit carriers. It goes directly to my NOC pager and all my NOC staff, and many times it has been very useful when people post about an OC-48 cut for ATT, or an XO outage, then our customers call us about issues and we know its not us and their carrier. I could care less whether or not Facebook is up or down. Facebook doesn't effect the rest of the internet like a Level3 or ATT outage, or or fiber cut in NYC. If you go to facebook.com and its down, then yes, its down. End of story. They are an endpoint on the internet. I'm not opposed to other sites being reported. If Google is down, thats big, because Google provides a ton email proxy services. Likewise, the post about register.com being down was very helpful because they provide core DNS services. These sites/networks effect the internet. But facebook is meaningless from an infrastructure/operations standpoint, and is a complete waste of time to discuss on this list.

-John

On Nov 18, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Peter Kranz wrote:

Yes and no… Was down even from direct peering connection in Palo Alto, now back up again..

From: outages-bounces@outages.org [mailto:outages- bounces@outages.org] On Behalf Of Ujjval Karihaloo Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 8:22 AM To: outages@outages.org Subject: [outages] Facebook down?

Is Facebook down again?

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

On 11/18/2010 12:28 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

Some operations do depend on Facebook.

It's good to know when you're running an ISP and customers say the Internet is down the same time you know Facebook is down.

Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373

Facebook is not the Internet and shouldn't be used as a guideline as to whether or not the Internet is down. I feel bad for your operations staff if that is your mechanism to determine an outage Customer: "I can't get to the Internet" Support: "You're right, Facebook is down, we'll open a ticket with our carrier..." I wonder what someone in Level3 or Global would tell me if I called and told them that... Anyhow, off to Best Buy, trying to find out why when I bought this computer I didn't receive the Internet inside the box as promised. -- =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ J. Oquendo SGFA, SGFE, C|EH, CNDA, CHFI, OSCP, CPT "It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently." - Warren Buffett 227C 5D35 7DCB 0893 95AA 4771 1DCE 1FD1 5CCD 6B5E http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x5CCD6B5E

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:28:07PM -0500, Josh Luthman wrote:

Some operations do depend on Facebook.

But why should the rest of us indulge this exceedingly poor choice? I expect to see traffic on "outages" that discusses Internet/telecom infrastructure outages -- that is, fiber cuts, circuit issues, prefix snafus, DNS botches, carrier downtime, etc. I don't expect to see traffic about any particular web site, *unless* that traffic is using that web site as an example of what the problem is, or as part of a symptom report, or to delineate the scope of a problem. Not Facebook, not Google, not Amazon, not eBay -- none of them are important enough or will ever be important enough to merit the same level of concern. [1] Now, I do get that some users out there conflate "Facebook" (or perhaps "Google" or some other site) with "the Internet". That's unfortunate, and I really do feel badly for front-line personnel who must deal with these people. But I would rather buy those folks a good bottle of scotch so that they can drown their troubles, and keep all that noise off here. ---rsk [1] Alright, alright, I have just been elbowed and forced to concede that an ICanHazCheeseburger outage is equivalent to the Apocalypse, the implosion of the sun, the eruption of all Pacific rim volcanoes, and the alignment of all 8...9...8...whatever planets all rolled into one. Fine. Report THAT. But just that one.

On 11/18/2010 3:26 PM, Rich Kulawiec wrote:

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:28:07PM -0500, Josh Luthman wrote:

...

Some operations do depend on Facebook.

But why should the rest of us indulge this exceedingly poor choice?

Because some of you have paying customers who complain (a complaint you want to be prepared to correct without a "wait-while-I-check", credibility destroying delay) that you are not providing connectivity you promised. Why not go back to NANOG? I'm getting what NANOG won't supply. -- Superfluity does not vitiate. http://lwolt.wordpress.com/ 1

John, Maybe you could put a filter in your paging scripts that looks for facebook and junks the email so you don't get woken up for it? You can completely solve this problem for yourself. Tine On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Carlos Alvarez <carlos@televolve.com>wrote:

John Von Essen wrote:

...

I mentioned this to Virendra in that survey that was sent out, but why do we feel its important to track facebook being up or down?

Sad as it may be, millions of people think Facebook is "the internet." They use it as their home page and rarely leave. FB is now one of the top five search engines, because people search there, since it is "the internet" for them. They use it as their e-mail, their calendar of events, and their contact list.

When FB dies, they call their ISP and report that the internet is down.

-- Carlos Alvarez TelEvolve 602-889-3003

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:48 PM, John Von Essen <john@quonix.net> wrote:

We're talking about average Joe Q Public.

This list is for NOC people, ISP operators - not the average Joe. Thats my point. Why are we wasting cycles on posting facebook outages. "WE" know that facebook is meaningless

Thousands of companies rely on Facebook's uptime for income. You might call Facebook pointless, but I'm not sure Zynga agrees with that assessment. Facebook is pointless *for you*. to Zynga's NOC team, probably less so. Let's not pretend it's pointless for everyone, from irate customers who call ISP's complaining that the "internet" is down, to people who use Facebook as a contact list/promotional tool/calendar, all the way up to multi-million dollar corporations who base a large portion of their revenue stream on Facebook's uptime.

My point to Virendra is this list is becoming tainted with meaningless posts. If people post garbage all the time, it will no longer be useful to anyone.

Far more time has been spent debating the merit of posting about Facebook than I've ever spent deleting emails with Facebook in the title, and far more time than it would have taken to create an email to filter out facebook messages from this list. We are, after all, NOC people and ISP operators, so we have the ability to determine what's important for each and every one of us. Facebook's status may not be important enough for you or I to read about, but I don't feel the need to dictate its level of importance to others. -- Derek Bodner subscribedlists@derekbodner.com

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010, John Von Essen wrote:

I could care less whether or not Facebook is up or down. Facebook doesn't effect the rest of the internet like a Level3 or ATT outage, or or fiber cut in NYC.

I could care less about a fiber cut in NYC. Please keep your fiber cut emails to yourself, I dont find them appropriate for this list.

I'm not opposed to other sites being reported. If Google is down, thats big, because Google provides a ton email proxy services. Likewise, the post about

funny, facebook provides a lot more services than you (clearly) care to know about as well. in my ops roll, if facebook is down (either APIs or customer interface) I -DO- want to know, because my job, my company, and my customers, "depend" on it. just because you don't use it doesnt mean others dont. (hence my comment about the fiber cuts) -- david raistrick http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html drais@icantclick.org http://www.expita.com/nomime.html

OK ENOUGH. Maybe you could all take your useless bickering off-list. If you get a notice you don't care about then delete it and go on with your life. Best Wishes, Jayson A. Baker Peak Internet On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 10:54 AM, John Von Essen <john@quonix.net> wrote:

Well then... your an idiot.

-John

On Nov 18, 2010, at 12:51 PM, david raistrick wrote:

I could care less about a fiber cut in NYC.

...

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

Does this really require 30 messages? Facebook was down. Deal with it. Unsubscribe. Best Wishes, Jayson A. Baker Peak Internet On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Avleen Vig <avleen@gmail.com> wrote:

"You're" an idiot.

And gramatical issues aside, major sites like Facebook being down have major business impact. That which impacts your business more may or may not align with that which impacts my business more.

We can either call this list "outages_which_effect_john_von_essen@outages.org", or we can accept that on a list called "outages", we will report major outages which have far reaching impact.

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:54 PM, John Von Essen <john@quonix.net> wrote:

...

Well then... your an idiot.

-John

On Nov 18, 2010, at 12:51 PM, david raistrick wrote:

...

I could care less about a fiber cut in NYC.

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

Can we just drop members that do not adhere to the charter of this list?

"Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives." I nearly removed myself from this distribution, but now I have to know what happens next week. -----Original Message----- From: outages-bounces@outages.org [mailto:outages-bounces@outages.org] On Behalf Of Avleen Vig Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:57 PM To: John Von Essen Cc: outages@outages.org Subject: Re: [outages] Facebook down? "You're" an idiot. And gramatical issues aside, major sites like Facebook being down have major business impact. That which impacts your business more may or may not align with that which impacts my business more. We can either call this list "outages_which_effect_john_von_essen@outages.org", or we can accept that on a list called "outages", we will report major outages which have far reaching impact. On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:54 PM, John Von Essen <john@quonix.net> wrote:

Well then... your an idiot.

-John

On Nov 18, 2010, at 12:51 PM, david raistrick wrote:

...

I could care less about a fiber cut in NYC.

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 11:51 AM, david raistrick <drais@icantclick.org> wrote:

I could care less about a fiber cut in NYC.

If this is true and not just in jest, you're very much on the wrong list. Every message that passes through this list has a footer, shown below:

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

I encourage everyone to read the above link for clarification on what material is expected on the list. As best I can determine, "is XYZwebsite down?" does not pass muster. There are other sites for the latter: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/www.facebook.com For those who may be too busy updating their Facebook status to click the above (or below) list description, here's the first paragraph: "The primary goal of this mailing list ("outages") is for outages-reporting that would apply to failures of major communications infrastructure components having significant traffic-carrying capacity, similar to what FCC provided prior to 9/11 days but they seem to have pulled back due to terrorism concerns. Some also believe that LEC's and IXC's also like this model as they no longer have to air their dirty laundry. Then again, this mailing list is not about making anyone look bad, its all about information sharing and keeping network operators & end users abreast on the situation as close to real-time information as possible in order to assess and respond to major outage such as routing voice/data via different carriers which may directly or indirectly impact us and our customers. A reliable communications network is essential in times of crisis." ...though some end-users may find a Facebook outage to be a "time of crisis," I'm fairly certain for operational purposes we can agree that it isn't worthy of a thread here -- whether it's a thread of "Me Too!" posts or "but it's important to ME!" posts. Please, let's let this thread burn out and move on with our day. - Tim

Can we agree the people that don't like the content posted can either unsubscribe or filter the list for the words they don't like (ie: facebook, myspace, google)? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 2:35 PM, david raistrick <drais@icantclick.org> wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010, Tim Yocum wrote:

...

"The primary goal of this mailing list ("outages") is for outages-reporting that would apply to failures of major communications infrastructure components having significant traffic-carrying capacity, similar to what FCC provided prior to 9/11 days but they

In other words, 99% of the traffic on this list has always been off topic. When was the last time anyone reported something that actually fits that?

-- david raistrick        http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html drais@icantclick.org             http://www.expita.com/nomime.html

_______________________________________________ Outages mailing list Outages@outages.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

On 11/18/10 8:52 AM, John Von Essen wrote:

I mentioned this to Virendra in that survey that was sent out, but why do we feel its important to track facebook being up or down?

Because it is a major portal site used by a large number of people. Case in point, a few years ago, Yahoo suffered a DDoS attack and was for all practical purposes unreachable. "So what, not important"? Well, it turns out that a substantial number of our customers had Yahoo set to their home page. So our support desk was clobbered with calls (and emails, funny...) thinking that *WE* or *the Internet* was down.

I find this list to be useful in tracking major IP outages between transit carriers.

As do most of us here.

It goes directly to my NOC pager and all my NOC staff, and many times it has been very useful when people post about an OC-48 cut for ATT, or an XO outage, then our customers call us about issues and we know its not us and their carrier.

It's also very useful when customers call about issues like Facebook being down and we know it's not us.

I could care less whether or not Facebook is up or down. Facebook doesn't effect the rest of the internet like a Level3 or ATT outage, or or fiber cut in NYC.

You and I know that. To a not so insignificant number of our customers, Facebook, Yahoo, MSN, EBay, or Google are "the Internet" as far as they know.

If you go to facebook.com and its down, then yes, its down. End of story. They are an endpoint on the internet.

I'm not opposed to other sites being reported. If Google is down, thats big, because Google provides a ton email proxy services. Likewise, the post about register.com being down was very helpful because they provide core DNS services. These sites/networks effect the internet.

But facebook is meaningless from an infrastructure/operations standpoint, and is a complete waste of time to discuss on this list.

Not completely, IMHO. I grant you that not every website out there having a hiccup is worth discussing here. On the other hand, if there's a fiber cut completely severing all connectivity to Papua New Guinea and I don't have any customers there or anyone trying to reach them I don't particularly rate it high on my individual radar even though it's infrastructure and an entire country. So if it's reported with an accurate subject line I'll skip the notice. I won't complain that I don't want to see it here because it doesn't affect me or any of my customers. I agree that Facebook is meaningless from an infrastructure standpoint but disagree that it is meaningless from an operations standpoint. -- Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Engineering - jay@impulse.net Impulse Internet Service - http://www.impulse.net/ Your local telephone and internet company - 805 884-6323 - WB6RDV